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ecg the conduit - b.f. skinner lyrics

allan gregg –
now yours is more than simply a phycologists approach to understanding the current problem i mean you’v gone through a tremendous amount of historical -n-lyses and i was struck weather it was gettysburg or ww2 your finding that very very few combatants on the battle field, actually shot to k!ll as low as 15 to 20% in ww2 where actually firing and we don’t know how many of them where posturing firing over the enemies head trying to daunt them

dave grossman –
the incidents of sociopaths in society, people who have no empathy for fellow human beings appears to be around 4% among males in there 20s it appears that the firing rate along the firing line those that are actually trying to k!ll the enemy could be brought down to (inaudible) 2% of all the fighter pilots in ww2 did the vast majority of all the k!lling in the air and the majority of the pilots never shot anybody down they never tried to

allan gregg –
and you say the same thing happens on the battlefield that when you look at all these #s at gettysburg that it was a small number in fact 15% or something that where doing all the k!lling and the others where stuffing there muskets with shot that wasn’t going to go off

dave grossman –
the majority of the weapons the vast majority of the weapons recovered after the battle of gettysburg where loaded weapons, but what you get is you get this image of the individual standing in the firing line side by side with his friends bravely valiantly he stand he loads he does everything he comes up to the moment of truth everybody else fires, he does not, and he brings it back down and you go through that process again and again and again and there where some weapons with 23 rounds staffed all the way down the barrel as brigadier general s.l.a. marshal said at the moment of truth the individual find himself face to face with another individual and becomes a non combatant a consciousness objector

allan gregg –
now you make the point that while k!lling may be an inherent taboo its something that can be learned that that in fact following korea found great problems with the fact that only 15 to 20 percent where shooting to k!ll and started developing techniques

dave grossman –
its operant conditioning the conditions stimulus is a man shaped silhouette popping up within view the conditioned response is you have a split second to engage the target the stimulus feedback when you hit the target the target drops a reward schedule are marksmanship badges that you receive

allan gregg –
so that becomes a conditioned response as soon as you see an enemy you k!ll

dave grossman –
right and it is straight out of bf skinner its operant conditioning you build that conditioning you build that conditioning reflex in. the thing to realize is there are two filters that the mind has to go through to k!ll someone the first filter is the forebrain the conscious rational mind it will put you on the battlefield in a certain place with a weapon in your hand. politicks will do that leaders will do that other things will do that. but the second filter is the midbrain. once you become frightened or angry you literally stop thinking with the mind of a human being you turn off the forebrain and start thinking with the midbrain. and the limbic system and the hypothalamus you start thinking with the brain thats indistinguishable from the mind of an animal. you know longer become a rational creature, now what you have to do is you have to go through this second filter if you wanna make somebody k!ll and the only way you make a frightened person react in a certain way is to drill it into them to make it a conditioned response using operant and cl-ssical conditioning processes does that make sense do you understand

interview guy – oh absolutely and you also talk about desensitizing as part of it and demonizing

dave grossman –
in a modern liberal democracy in our army we want to turn violence on and off like a faucet and so what we use is operant conditioning and cl-ssical conditioning we don’t demonize the enemy but what we do do (lol he said doo doo) is overcome our innate revulsion to k!lling we overcome this resistance and we begin to -ssociate violence with pleasure

- ecg the conduit lyrics

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